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Hi everyone, I am going to be calibrating a OLED TV and it was mentioned by another member in another thread that the Calman Home Express for $99 on Amazon would be good for a beginner that wants to calibrate. What are your guys's thoughts about this $99 bundle? I really wanted to get a i1display X-Rite but do not really know what software and what else I would need to calibrate the OLED. Everything I read sounds so foreign to me as far as calibrating.

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I really want the best 'entry level' setup that has step by step instructions for me. It seems like Calman offers that, I just do not know if this is a good bundle or not? Any help would be greatly appreciated. I sold my 950B so that's why I didn't post in that other thread. Hi everyone, I am going to be calibrating a OLED TV and it was mentioned by another member in another thread that the Calman Home Express for $99 on Amazon would be good for a beginner that wants to calibrate. What are your guys's thoughts about this $99 bundle?

Delphi 7 Serial Port. I really wanted to get a i1display X-Rite but do not really know what software and what else I would need to calibrate the OLED. Everything I read sounds so foreign to me as far as calibrating. I really want the best 'entry level' setup that has step by step instructions for me. It seems like Calman offers that, I just do not know if this is a good bundle or not? Any help would be greatly appreciated. I sold my 950B so that's why I didn't post in that other thread. Hi, with CalMAN Express you can calibrate only 2-point Grayscale, not 10-Point Gamma or Color Gamut (CMS).

So you will not be able to calibrate any display completely. SpectraCAL's C3 is a custom OEM version of the ColorMunki Smile. It has a custom instrument name ('SpectraCal C3'), custom paint job/artwork, and custom instrument password so it only works with their software. This device WILL NOT connect to any X-Rite software.

Look that note about CM Express+C3 package: *As of September 1, 2015 we have not been able to order Amazon Fire TV Sticks from Amazon. We have included instructions within the box for how to register Home Express and receive a free certificate that covers the cost of an an Amazon Fire TV Stick. ColorMunki Smile has LCD with CCFL back-light and LCD with LED back-light meter profiles. For OLED, look for i1Display PRO (Retail) meter which has an OLED profile table also and better performance to low light measurements and it's faster and more stable.

Look for HCFR which is free open source software that will give you the capability to take 11/21-Point Grayscale/Gamut Calibration/Saturation/Liuminance/ColorChecker readings also. With i11Display PRO you will be able to calibrate all your PC monitors also with the X-Rite i1Profiler that is coming with the meter, something you can't do with C3+CM Express. Hi everyone, I am going to be calibrating a OLED TV and it was mentioned by another member in another thread that the Calman Home Express for $99 on Amazon would be good for a beginner that wants to calibrate. What are your guys's thoughts about this $99 bundle? I really wanted to get a i1display X-Rite but do not really know what software and what else I would need to calibrate the OLED. Everything I read sounds so foreign to me as far as calibrating. I really want the best 'entry level' setup that has step by step instructions for me.

It seems like Calman offers that, I just do not know if this is a good bundle or not? Any help would be greatly appreciated. I sold my 950B so that's why I didn't post in that other thread. Xrite i1 Display Pro + CalMAN Control would be my recommendation. I am in the same position and have the same questions as you, iStorm. My understanding is that cutting our calibration teeth on the LG OLEDs is probably not the easiest thing to do, but.whatcha gonna do? Cal-man does have a 'bundle' with the recommended software and colorimeter: They throw in the AVSHD pattern generator disc to save us the trouble.

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I'm leaning toward this bundle over the $99 one because I want 1) More that 2 point greyscale 2) Comprehensive reporting to share results with others. I am in the same position and have the same questions as you, iStorm. My understanding is that cutting our calibration teeth on the LG OLEDs is probably not the easiest thing to do, but.whatcha gonna do? Cal-man does have a 'bundle' with the recommended software and colorimeter: They throw in the AVSHD pattern generator disc to save us the trouble. I'm leaning toward this bundle over the $99 one because I want 1) More that 2 point greyscale 2) Comprehensive reporting to share results with others. Go with the Enthusiast package.

It allows you to edit and create workflows and Calman RGB comes with it. You can always pick-up a spectro later. The Control or the Basic does not let you edit the workflows.

Also, all license levels of CalMAN support using the Amazon FireTV/FireTV Stick + MobileForge as an automated pattern generator(which is the recommended combo for using MobileForge for TV calibration). Using test pattern discs for grayscale/gamma/gamut measurements is painful slow. First of all when you are using MobileForge is compressing 0-255 to 16-235, so you are loosing the capability to correctly calibrate the most important pre-calibration setting.Contrast-Brightness. All below 16 steps (1-15 are becoming 16 and the all above 235 (236-254) steps are becoming 235, so it's impossible to set contrast and not able to check if you have correctly setup your black level without lifting your black. Any Blu-Ray player has different ways to convert the 4:2:0 to 4:2:0 or 4:4:4, different processing, what's why if you compare 10 bluray players they will not have the same picture output. So when you use a external pattern generator, you are just skipping to fix all the player output inaccuracies, they are invisible because you are not measure them.

When you are using a calibration disk you are counting and fixing the full video chain and you can count/calibrate the player errors also. Anyone who has spent money on calibration gear will choose accuracy and full video chain calibration from just some minutes faster calibration. Here is an example about comparinga The difference is obviously present @ Gamma/RGB Balance graphs and visually by looking the reference pictures. So when you using a external pattern generator of any price range (it doesn't matter if you use a $20.000 or a $500 pattern generator) you will never be able to see these Gamma/RGB Balance differences. These are some examples of Consumer Blu-Ray Players that tested using Quantum Data HDMI Analyser: As you see, all players are changing the signal at their output.making pointless to use an external pattern generator where it doesn't see these errors. If someone would like to perform measurements of any type of measurement run that CalMAN supports, I have added Automated measurement solution without user prompt that displays and measures all the required patterns from the user's Blu-ray or Media Player without using an external pattern generator.

The patterns are auto-changing per 2 or 6 or 10 sec. I have posted about how this works. They throw in the AVSHD pattern generator disc to save us the trouble. Hi, AVSHD Disk as you see to the picture it's grayscale RGB Triplets are not matching exact the levels the CalMAN's Engine expects for it's calculations. When you will use it to perform Grayscale calibration your gamma will be slight of and mid-low range because AVSHD's Grayscale patterns are rounding fractional RGB codes down to the nearest integer. DVE disk is doing the exact same thing, so it's not 100% accurate for Grayscale with CalMAN also. The difference you will have @ gamma calculations for: 5% Gray = -19.22% Luminance error 10% Gray = -9.23% Luminance error 15% Gray = -5.82% Luminance error 20% Gray = -4.10% Luminance error 25% Gray = 3.07% Luminance error 30% Gray = 2.39% Luminance error 35% Gray = 1.90% Luminance error 40% Gray = 1.53% Luminance error You will not have these errors if you use a calibration disk that matches 100% the RGB triplets of CalMAN Engine.

Also, all license levels of CalMAN support using the Amazon FireTV/FireTV Stick + MobileForge as an automated pattern generator(which is the recommended combo for using MobileForge for TV calibration). Using test pattern discs for grayscale/gamma/gamut measurements is painful slow. Tyler just to remind you some of your posts, about how accurate is the MobileForge as a solution, to save time while it's adding new errors.SpectraCAL posted that they have verified with waveform monitor a lot of mobile phones and found that are all accurate when MediaForge released: ' Tyler Pruitt - Technical Liaison @ SpectraCAL After that Zoyd performed a quick test and found that there rounding errors. Something SpectraCAL didn't mentioned. ' Zoyd After some weeks, users started to report large errors and SpectraCAL came back and posted that there problems in mixed RGB Triplet generation of patterns (patches required for Gamut calibration) and that there no problems with Grayscale patterns: ' Tyler Pruitt - Technical Liaison @ SpectraCAL.

These are some examples of Consumer Blu-Ray Players that tested using Quantum Data HDMI Analyser: As you see, all players are changing the signal at their output.making pointless to use an external pattern generator where it doesn't see these errors. Those tests showed that in the 4:4:4 mode the players have 0 or negligible errors. The only exception is the Sony, which has different modes (Standard, Bright, Film) which are known to modify the video signals, and it was not known which mode was used in the test.

Those tests showed that in the 4:4:4 mode the players have 0 or negligible errors. The only exception is the Sony, which has different modes (Standard, Bright, Film) which are known to modify the video signals, and it was not known which mode was used in the test. LG has errors in 4:4:4 also: There some thousand different firmware/players produced the last year, you can't be sure that all have correct output unless you have a DVDO AV Lab to check for errors with it's colorchecker function. HDTVtest.co.uk UK's leading HDTV news & review website has start using Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk as a reference to analyze any Blu-Ray HDMI Output signal for digital errors @ bit level using DVDO’s AVLab TPG Signal Generator.

Look the errors in the latest reference Samsung Player here: Nothing is perfect in consumer market. So when you use a external pattern generator, you are just skipping to fix all the player output inaccuracies, they are invisible because you are not measure them. When you are using a calibration disk you are counting and fixing the full video chain and you can count/calibrate the player errors also. I've always been a proponent of using the Blu-ray players for calibrating the TV, to get the most accurate picture when viewing Blu-ray discs; and yet I got ridiculed by some 'expert' with an expensive pattern generator. First of all when you are using MobileForge is compressing 0-255 to 16-235, so you are loosing the capability to correctly calibrate the most important pre-calibration setting Its actually the device doing the compression, not MobileForge. If you have an Amazon Fire TV Stick, plugged into a Panasonic display with the color space set to a certain value, you will actually get all levels from 1-254 out of MobileForge.

Same thing if plugged into a DVDO TPG while the Fire TV compresses (non Stick) when plugged into the DVDO TPG. The EDID in the DVDO TPG causes some devices to do the non optimal color space output. Basically devices that don't let you force the color space will be unpredictable when plugged into a TPG. Its probably something they set in the preferred settings of the EDID. After that Zoyd performed a quick test and found that there rounding errors.

Something SpectraCAL didn't mentioned. The rounding errors are caused by 8-bit BT.709 color space conversion.

For example, you can take an RGB image that is R 180, G 16, B 180 and convert to YCbCr and back to RGB, you will not get R 180, G 16, B 180. You will get rounding errors. Every test pattern generator will have rounding errors.

You can even get compounding rounding errors. For example, sending RGB out of a device, such as a Blu-ray player, will often get converted back into YCbCr early in the display pipeline and then back into RGB again, which introduces even more rounding errors. I've always been a proponent of using the Blu-ray players for calibrating the TV, to get the most accurate picture when viewing Blu-ray discs; and yet I got ridiculed by some 'expert' with an expensive pattern generator: If you are using a pattern generator, then you would want its output settings to match your Blu-ray player.

4:2:2 1080p23.98 out of Blu-ray player, then do the same thing with the pattern generator. Sending 4:2:2 out of Blu-ray and RGB out of generator might result in you setting up a different memory. Some displays can have a different memory based on color space, resolution, frame rate and interlaced vs.

Soon we might even see bit depth and then SDR vs. HDR memories. I know my Blu-ray disc patterns are bit accurate from source ->encode ->decode. (all but zone plate, which his impossible to make bit accurate) I hand verified all of them.

Then I used a trusted Blu-ray player and fed the output into a Quantum Data 882 HDMI analyzer and measured every RGB and YCbCr level and confirmed bit accurate as well. We found bugs with some players, including DVDO's platform, and got them to fix them. The TPG can be flaky at times. Sometimes it cause a source device to output the wrong color space (as mentioned above), so you can't verify a device as accurate as a QuantumData. Nothing wrong with a TPG, its a poor mans solution that works 95% of the time. I wish it worked more because it is much easier to use. I would not want to create a 3D LUT with a Blu-ray disc, its tedious.

What about OPPO? I can't read the text, so I don't know what it is saying. I see the word Gamma, which suggests they are using picture controls which will alter the output. Are they using HDMI 1 or HDMI 2? What is the output color space? They default to auto, which means it does whatever the display has written in the EDID, which is often whatever the default value is from some chip maker.

Rarely is it the optimum value. Its more about what is the 'safe bet'. I have measured every RGB and YCbCr level output of the OPPO 83 and 103 and they are bit accurate at 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 output at native resolution. I have measured a lot of Blu-ray players using the QD882EA. I did not test the RGB outputs as I don't recommend ever using them on any Blu-ray player.

Also, HDMI 1 and HDMI 2 on the 93, 103, 103D and 105D go through different paths. HDMI 1 is the pure path. True, some devices are doing some wonky things, just like some Blu-ray players are doing wonky things.

Can't control that. Most people do not have a 'hand verified' Blu-ray player. Using a wonky Blu-ray player for calibration will result in errors relative to a 'perfect' calibration, but the calibration errors will actually compensate for the wonkiness of the Blu-ray player; i.e., movies played on the player will be displayed correctly. This is referred to as 'calibrating out the error' at a system (as opposed to component) level.

Using a wonky pattern generator, on the other hand, will results in calibration errors that will compound the wonkiness of the Blu-ray player - unless you use the pattern generator to play your movies (which obviously no one does). The rounding errors are caused by 8-bit BT.709 color space conversion. For example, you can take an RGB image that is R 180, G 16, B 180 and convert to YCbCr and back to RGB, you will not get R 180, G 16, B 180.

You will get rounding errors. Every test pattern generator will have rounding errors. You can even get compounding rounding errors. For example, sending RGB out of a device, such as a Blu-ray player, will often get converted back into YCbCr early in the display pipeline and then back into RGB again, which introduces even more rounding errors. I would not want to create a 3D LUT with a Blu-ray disc, its tedious. I have created that calibration disk, for 3D LUT profiling before 4 years.

It required tons of work for verification one-by-one more than 4 times each patch and generally for this concept. I don't thing anyone will have the patience/passion to do something similar and just replied how to fix rounding errors with 3D LUT profiling from the customer source here. As a high-end professional in the world of calibration - LightSpace CMS is the pinnacle for calibration work in the ultimate professional Film and TV industry - I totally agree that using a Blu-ray disc in DIP mode for 3D LUT calibration of a Home Theatre environment, that uses the player for film playback, is indeed the best approach to calibrate such an environment, exactly for the reasons Ted describes.

Any other approach will not be calibrating the entire image chain, and 'assumes' everything in the chain is bit perfect. For those of you that use a HTPC, calibration should be via a source within the HTPC, assuming films are played of the internal HDD, not a disc player within the PC, unless the films are first 'loaded' from a disc player, in which case ideally you should again start from there for perfect full image chain calibration.

But, I would add to the above that for many displays the level of calibration accuracy that can be attained is often below the level of error inherent in any full image path. It really does depend on the level of accuracy you want to attain. But I guess if you are on this forum, you are striving for perfection - so we are again back to the start. Ted's disc really is an example of the ultimate tool for HT calibration - an awesome amount of very impressive work! As a non-professional display calibration hobbyist.

Ok make that 'complete noob', I'm enjoying the conversation. Even though much of it is over my head. The main takeaway I have gotten out of it so far is: 1) I should use a calibration disc that is being displayed out of the actual Blu-ray player in my display chain for calibration. This will provide an opportunity to 'calibrate out' any errors due to actual display chain.

I understand that when video is played from other sources (direct network connection, FiOS receiver), the results could potentially vary. 2) My Blu-ray player has YCrCb and RGB options. I assume I should continue to use YCrCb. It is less clear to me exactly how MobileForge works as a pattern generator.

I do have a Chromecast and an android tablet capable of screen casting. As an alternate to a calibration disc, can this be used also for at least gray-scale calibration as part of the SpetraCal workflow? Did I understand correctly that there might be some errors introduced if used for color gamut (Depending on my specific android device used)? I'm still looking at CalMan control + Xrite i1 Display Pro bundle as my bundle of choice. I've read that this does not allow me to 'customize my workflow', but I'm assuming this is not too big of a deal considering I'm not doing this for a side business.

Just for my own learning experience with my own set. One thing I am unclear on. Since I would be using a retail version of CalMan, I would need to use a paid-for version of Ted's LightSpace Calibration Disc? (Not the free version).

Is this correct? If I decided to go the full open-source (zero cost) route for the software. What route would you go? (Again, my primary target is to calibrate an LG OLED set with a Blu-ray calibration disc). EDIT: To be clear, my goals for calibration: 1) Basic Pre-calibration 2) Gamma 3) 10 point grey-scale 4) Potentially color gamut.

Though I understand it might be best to avoid LG CMS. Stihl Serial Number Year Made. In the end, I would like to be able to generate before and after reports so that I can share my results for public critique. 2) My Blu-ray player has YCrCb and RGB options. I assume I should continue to use YCrCb. You should test all three and find out what works best. Here is an article () I co-authored that discusses some of the reasons why and what to look for.

Some example: I had a Panasonic VT20 that would have YC delay if you sent in 4:4:4 or RGB, but not 4:2:2. I have a Samsung projector that has YC delay if you send in 4:2:2, so I send in 4:4:4. The Vizio P series clips when you send in YCbCr. If the Vizio display has a 'color space' menu option, sending in RGB and changing that option from auto to RGB will remove the clipping. Also, some multi point adjustments introduce banding, so take a look at a gradient before and after to make sure it is not happening.

You should test all three and find out what works best. Here is an article () I co-authored that discusses some of the reasons why and what to look for. Some example: I had a Panasonic VT20 that would have YC delay if you sent in 4:4:4 or RGB, but not 4:2:2. I have a Samsung projector that has YC delay if you send in 4:2:2, so I send in 4:4:4. The Vizio P series clips when you send in YCbCr.

If the Vizio display has a 'color space' menu option, sending in RGB and changing that option from auto to RGB will remove the clipping. Also, some multi point adjustments introduce banding, so take a look at a gradient before and after to make sure it is not happening. I have noticed the issues you posted. Throw in refresh rate and interlaced vs progressive also in the mix. Curious what to do when internet is I assume RGB and 4:2:2 are used on one set? Curious what to do when internet is I assume RGB and 4:2:2 are used on one set?

Can you provide more info? What is the source of Internet into your TV? Is it via a laptop/desktop plugged in such as an HTPC All video sources you watch at home are coming in as 4:2:0 and being converted up, even on a computer.

Now the desktop is generated in RGB at 0, 255. In some cases the desktop may get remapped to 16, 235 from 0, 255. A lot of what happens depends on the OS and the GPU and the drivers. Its really pretty messy under the hood.

I can tell you the browser on the Xbox One is at PC levels 0, 255. So blacks will be crushed and it will be more contrasty than it should be.

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Games, on the other hand, are remapped from 0, 255 into 16, 235 unless they were authored for 16, 235. Can you provide more info?

What is the source of Internet into your TV? Is it via a laptop/desktop plugged in such as an HTPC All video sources you watch at home are coming in as 4:2:0 and being converted up, even on a computer. Now the desktop is generated in RGB at 0, 255. In some cases the desktop may get remapped to 16, 235 from 0, 255.

A lot of what happens depends on the OS and the GPU and the drivers. Its really pretty messy under the hood. I can tell you the browser on the Xbox One is at PC levels 0, 255.

So blacks will be crushed and it will be more contrasty than it should be. Games, on the other hand, are remapped from 0, 255 into 16, 235 unless they were authored for 16, 235. P series with direct internet connection using internal apps. Sat being the other connection thru box.

I sent 4:2:2 from generator. I noticed a major clip using Ycc. I tried to find out what cable and sat boxes sent to tv. 4:2:2 was the answer and Direct sat supposed to be 4:4:4? You say 4:2:0.? Regardless, is internet thru tv apps RGB?

P series with direct internet connection using internal apps. Sat being the other connection thru box.

I sent 4:2:2 from generator. I noticed a major clip using Ycc. The P series clips.

Only way to not clip is to send RGB and set the color space option in the menu to RGB, from auto. Not all P series may have that menu option. The apps like Netflix and Amazon stream in as 4:2:0 and then go through various pipelines and ultimately get converted to RGB. Same as using an external source.

Everything will eventually be converted to RGB for viewing. The UI for the apps such as Netflix and Amazon are created in RGB. They may get converted to YCbCr and back to RGB or they may stay RGB in the set. All compressed content is 4:2:0.

It all will be converted to RGB before being viewed by eye balls. In between it can be converted between 4:2:2, 4:4:4 and RGB more than once. Some chips, to cut costs, process in YCbCr. Some of those, such as DVDO and Lumagen do it in 4:2:2. (deinterlacing and scaling) 3D LUTs are done in RGB.

I have measured every RGB and YCbCr level output of the OPPO 83 and 103 and they are bit accurate at 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 output at native resolution. I have measured a lot of Blu-ray players using the QD882EA. I did not test the RGB outputs as I don't recommend ever using them on any Blu-ray player. Also, HDMI 1 and HDMI 2 on the 93, 103, 103D and 105D go through different paths.

HDMI 1 is the pure path. Stacey, have you measured some million RGB and YCbCr to be sure? Even if it's accurate the specific model you tested, it doesn't mean that the whole production line models can be completely accurate. There a lot of internal revisions of hardware that companies are making-micro changes in materials they use inside (different hardware for each region) and also there tons of different firmware versions for different regions around the world for each player. As you have seen there many times that a single firmware update of a display company can solve some problem but introduce other at another area, and many times it has been reported by the users that a simple firmware update changed the calibration results. Consumers don't have the pleasure to have HDMI analyzers at their home to test after every firmware update is their player are error free. A company will start looking for a problem when someone will report it to them.so how many are able to test the accuracy of each player firmware individually?

It will takes ages to check this out. 2/3 passes to locate the problem. Stacey, have you measured some million RGB and YCbCr to be sure? For YCbCr, you don't need to measure a million values. You measure every Y values with Cb and Cr at 128, with Y monotonically increasing. Then Y at 126 and Cr at 128 and Cb monotonically increasing and same for Cr. I don't ever recommend using RGB output.

Before the 83 shipped, there was an issue with the DVDO color conversion. All DVDO VP30s and 50s have this problem.

It was fixed before the 83 every shipped. I eventually got DVDO to fix it in the Duo. If you read the choosing a color space article I mentioned, this issue is discussed at the very bottom. Panasonic had the same issue and fixed it after I pointed it out. Can you translate what the picture says? Hard to dispute something when I don't know what is said. It doesn't mean that the whole production line models can be completely accurate.

Actually it does mean that. We don't have analog variance happening here.

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If the parts and FW are the same, they are all going to produce the same bits. I do update to each firmware. If there is an issue with a FW, I tell them and they fix it. Same goes for Panasonic. Usually bits are not the problem with FW updates.

Except for the chroma bug on an early Panasonic BD player that was not present, came with a FW update and went away with the next.